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Author Topic:   Why do they even care?
BoredCynic™ v2.0
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Posts: 126
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posted 03-26-2004 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BoredCynic™ v2.0     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"ATLANTA (AP) - Genital piercings for women were banned by the Georgia House Wednesday as lawmakers considered a bill outlining punishments for female genital mutilation.

The bill would make such mutilation punishable by two to 20 years in prison. It makes no exception for people who give consent to have the procedure performed on their daughters out of religious or cultural custom.

An amendment adopted without objection added "piercing" to the list of things that may not be done to female genitals. Even adult women would not be allowed to get the procedure. The bill eventually passed 160-0, with no debate.

Amendment sponsor Rep. Bill Heath, R-Bremen, was slack-jawed when told after the vote that some adults seek the piercings.

"What? I've never seen such a thing," Heath said. "I, uh, I wouldn't approve of anyone doing it. I don't think that's an appropriate thing to be doing."

The ban applies only to women, not men. The bill has already been approved by the Senate but now must return to that chamber because of the piercing amendment. Both chambers of the Legislature must agree on a single version of a bill before it can go to the governor for final approval."

This bill was originally proposed to outlaw clitorectomy (an african tribal practice). Many african immigrants have moved to GA, and have brought this practice with them. Basically, it is the removal of the clitoris in female children, rendering them unable to experience sexual pleasure. It is a horrible misogynistic practice.

Unfortunately, riders and add-ons to the final bill changed it to include all genital piercings.

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Frozen Ghost
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posted 03-26-2004 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frozen Ghost   Click Here to Email Frozen Ghost     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BoredCynic™ v2.0:
It makes no exception for people who give consent to have the procedure performed on their daughters out of religious or cultural custom.

This bill was originally proposed to outlaw clitorectomy (an african tribal practice). Many african immigrants have moved to GA, and have brought this practice with them.

Let me get this right. So clitorectomy, an african cultural custom, is protected under the law that was written to protect young girls from clitorectomy in the first place.

It makes my head hurt! The moron who couldn't believe anyone would do that probably had half of his dick cut off at birth like a good many of us and had it done to his kid as well and sees nothing wrong with it!!!!!

Clitorectomy and Circumcision should be outlawed, banned, and procecuted without prejudice in all 50 states and the territories. Man that shit makes my blood boil.

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BoredCynic™ v2.0
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posted 03-26-2004 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BoredCynic™ v2.0     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I dunno, man. Just figured it'd be something else to talk about.

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joshua
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posted 03-26-2004 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joshua   Click Here to Email joshua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is an amazing fucking bill. I can't believe these conservatives.

However, I don't think circumcision should be band. I'm circumcised, I've got no problem with it at all. I understand that I might be more sensitive if I wren't, but I also understand that I'd be more prone to desiese. Whatever, I haven't done a lot of reasearch on the topic.

Clitorectomy on the other hand, well... it's so purpose is to rob the female of sexual empowerment, something tha tcircumcision doesn't do to the male. Ergo, It's a no go for me.

I like the clit, what's more, I like pierced clits... but then we covered that in another discussion, didn't we? Sorta?

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Geoff
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posted 03-27-2004 12:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geoff   Click Here to Email Geoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Damn, I'm not quite sure where I stand on this. Should the government be able to stop grown women from getting pierced? Hell no. But when we get into cultural practices, it gets a little fuzzy. Clitorectomy is clearly a partriarchal practice, and could be construed as child abuse, but well, damn, I'm not sure if it's the government's place. It's part of the culture, and telling people in our culture that they can't circumcise anymore wouldn't go over too well. By outlawing a sexist practice, are we really getting rid of the sexism? It seems like there must be a better way than making something illegal. Damned if I know what it is though. Wasn't there something more important that the GA lawmakers could have been doing?

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Frozen Ghost
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posted 03-29-2004 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frozen Ghost   Click Here to Email Frozen Ghost     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joshua:
This is an amazing fucking bill. I can't believe these conservatives.

It is so insane are we sure it’s not another article from the Onion?


However, I don't think circumcision should be band. I'm circumcised, I've got no problem with it at all.

You don’t now, but I bet at the time it happened you didn’t think it was such a great idea. For one thing you don't know any different. You, me, and everyone else who were mutilated at birth was denied any other frame of reference. I think cutting a large part of your penis off is something everyone should be able to make a choice about. I'm pro-choice on bodily mutilation. You can’t be outraged at the conservative’s use of this bill to prevent someone’s freedom of choice about bodily mutilation without seeing the injustice of conducting bodily mutilation on those who cannot make a choice. Can you?

I understand that I might be more sensitive if I wren't, but I also understand that I'd be more prone to desiese.

Yes, let's ponder the logic of imposing the trauma inducing event of cutting off a large part of the most sensitive area on a baby's body as a prophylactic measure for a moment. <Uncomfortable silence in which several fellows fight the urge to reposition themselves> What in the hell are we trying to prevent? Ebola? I think even if it were genital Ebola I’d want to wait until it became a problem before I the most sensitive part of the largest organ in my body, namely my skin. Around a third of the skin of the penis is removed during circumcision.

Whatever, I haven't done a lot of reasearch on the topic.

I’ve looked into it and I have given it some thought. I’m convinced that it is an outmoded practice that has little or no medical value and in fact causes trauma and deprives a man not only of pleasure but also the basic right over the control of his body.

Clitorectomy on the other hand, well... it's so purpose is to rob the female of sexual empowerment, something tha tcircumcision doesn't do to the male. Ergo, It's a no go for me.

Sometimes you say things that totally astound me amigo. Using the term “sexual empowerment” like you did there for example. So, are you saying removing the ability to experience sexual pleasure (sexual empowerment) is ok if done by degrees? Why would you say it doesn’t diminish a male’s sexual empowerment to have his ability to experience sexual pleasure diminished?

The Frozen Ghost

[This message has been edited by Frozen Ghost (edited 03-29-2004).]

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Frozen Ghost
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posted 03-29-2004 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frozen Ghost   Click Here to Email Frozen Ghost     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Taken from The American Council on Science and Health, Inc websites at http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/0904/circno.html

Is Circumcision Healthy? — No
by Dr. Robert S. Van Howe

Within 48 hours of birth the average American boy is taken from the warmth and security of his mother and strapped to a board. His foreskin—the skin that covers the head of the penis (the glans), serves to protect the penis from irritation and infection, and has the highest density of specialized sensory nerves of that organ—is torn from the glans. Then a bell-shaped device is lowered onto the fresh wound and a thumbscrewlike apparatus is applied. This is tightened until the foreskin is amputated. The discarded nerves would have enabled sensations of fine touch, temperature, and pleasure. All that remains is an open, throbbing wound with nerves that eventually will enable only sensations of deep pressure and pain.

During the operation, the infant's blood oxygen drops. His heart rate and cortisol level (a measure of stress) shoot up. His crying becomes high-pitched, such that one would observe only when a baby is in intense pain. Then he may completely dissociate (a response similar to severe posttraumatic stress disorder) and become quiet—giving up because no one has rescued him. Immediate complications of the operation can include hemorrhage (sometimes fatal or requiring a blood transfusion); minor infections; deadly infections such as meningitis, gangrene, and septicemia (blood poisoning); partial or complete amputation of the penis; urinary retention leading to renal failure; and rupture of the bladder or stomach. (continued on page 27)

The vast majority of neonatal circumcisions are performed without anesthesia. Using local anesthesia during the operation has been disappointing. Research has shown that local anesthesia does not prevent, but merely moderates, the cortisol elevation. Furthermore, local anesthesia does not affect postoperative pain, such as that due to the newborn's urinating and defecating into the open penile wound. In any case, the external application or injection of any local anesthetic involves risk to the patient.

After the operation the baby, exhausted and apprehensive, is returned to his mother. He has difficulty quieting down after disturbances. The time he spends in dreamless (non-REM) sleep is increased. He is less available for interaction with his mother. This hinders the establishment of breast-feeding and maternal bonding and thus leads to weight loss and jaundice. Once he has been brought home, the baby's risk of certain local skin problems—penile infections, inflammation of the penile meatus (passage), and narrowing of the meatus, for example—is higher than that of noncircumcised infants. Half the time, his glans will not be fully exposed and this will prompt further surgery.

The operation's psychological impact on newborns is largely unknown, but performing circumcision without an anesthetic has enabled studying the parameters of extreme pain in experiments that researchers would have been prohibited from performing on lab animals. Researchers who have studied such parameters in infants have concluded that newborns are more susceptible to painful stimuli than are older infants.

Recent research suggests that the operation may have long-lasting effects on the patient's perception of and sensitivity to painful stimuli. The main structures for memory are functional in newborns, and remembrance of pain may figure in pain perception later. For days after the surgery, the circumcised boy will experience a greater change in heart rate when his blood is drawn than will a noncircumcised boy. And regardless of whether an anesthetic was used during circumcision, he will cry louder and longer during inoculations months later.

Boys circumcised when they were five years old showed a decrease in IQ, feelings of insecurity and inferiority, sexual identification disturbances, regressiveness, an increase in self-aggression, and other psychological problems after the operation. The children perceived the operation as castration and perceived females as responsible for the act.

The adverse effects of circumcision on self-esteem and body image appear to increase with age, as circumcised men entering their forties and fifties are increasingly expressing dissatisfaction. Circumcised men report suffering from premature ejaculation, impotence, bleeding at the scar site during erections, desensitization of the glans, pubic hair on the shaft of the penis, painful intercourse, and decreased lubrication. While such evidence is largely anecdotal, the need for further research is clear.

In a recent University of Chicago study, researchers discovered that circumcised men engaged in masturbation and oral and anal sex more often than did noncircumcised men. This suggests that they may be in search of greater direct stimulation than that afforded by coitus. The Committee on Bioethics of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs consider it unethical to perform nonemergency surgery on individuals who (continued on page 29) are unable to consent. Isn't it prudent to let the person with the foreskin decide whether to have it removed?

Circumcision was introduced as a routine medical practice a century ago to eradicate masturbation and all the illnesses then associated with masturbation, including epilepsy, hydrocephalus, idiocy, and paralysis. Circumcision is still promoted as a "health" measure—and continues to fall short of its billing.

Advocates of circumcision claim that the operation prevents balanitis (inflammation of the head of the penis) and ensures genital hygiene. But not a single study reported in the medical literature supports these claims. On the contrary, studies indicate that balanitis affects circumcised and noncircumcised males equally And it may not be coincidental that the United States, where 80 to 90 percent of the males are circumcised, has one of the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases and HIV infection in the world: New findings suggest that circumcised men may be more at risk of contracting syphilis, gonorrhea, nongonococcal urethritis, chlamydia, genital warts, and genital herpes. Moreover, the results of combining the data from the 28 published studies comparing HIV status to circumcision indicate that circumcision puts a man at a significantly higher risk of HIV infection.

Penile cancer is more common in the United States than in Denmark, Japan, and Norway—countries in which fewer than 2 percent of the men are circumcised. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that penile and cervical cancer result from viral (human papillomavirus) infection and smoking. Indeed, in 1996 officials of the American Cancer Society stated: "Perpetuating the mistaken belief that circumcision prevents cancer is inappropriate."

Whether urinary tract infections (UTIs)—uncommon in boys overall—are more common in noncircumcised boys is undetermined. The studies published to date that have suggested a higher incidence of UTI among the noncircumcised had methodological flaws: Confounding factors—for example, hygiene habits, outpatient treatment, modes of urine collection, socioeconomic status, race, prematurity, and perinatal health—were not taken into account. Any one of the confounding factors could explain the UTI-incidence difference—a difference of less than 1 percent—between circumcised and noncircumcised boys.

Four studies have shown an increase in UTI risk in circumcised boys during the first week after the operation. No studies have linked the foreskin to serious kidney disease. On the contrary, the data suggest that kidney problems are more likely in circumcised boys with UTIs than in noncircumcised boys with UTIs.

According to published cost-utility analyses, routine neonatal circumcision (a) is not cost-effective and (b) adversely affects general health. Neonatal circumcision and its aftereffects cost the United States $500 million to $800 million annually.

An objective examination of the published findings on circumcision in the scientific literature leads one to conclude that circumcision does more harm than good. The scientific community needs to study properly the psychosexual, human-rights, and long-term medical impact of circumcision. Until the full range of harm is known, prudence demands a moratorium on the surgery.

Robert S. Van Howe, M.D., practices general pediatrics in northern Wisconsin with the Marshfield Clinic. He is a clinical instructor at the Medical College of Wisconsin and a consultant to the American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force on Circumcision.

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BoredCynic™ v2.0
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posted 03-29-2004 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BoredCynic™ v2.0     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
::sqiurm::

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joshua
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posted 03-30-2004 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joshua   Click Here to Email joshua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay Ghost, read, understood and noted. I have no comment in return. We have hit a topic where teh data you've provided is all teh data I have.

I'll say this though, partially in jest... partially not. If my penis was anymore sensitive, I'd have a problem performing my function as a satisfying lover. I mean I've got to revert to meditation techniques to make sure we're both happy as it is... and sometimes, sometimes that doesn't even work.

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Julie
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posted 03-31-2004 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Julie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To: Frozen Ghost
From: Julie
RE: Male circumcision
----------------------
I agree.

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Frozen Ghost
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posted 03-31-2004 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frozen Ghost   Click Here to Email Frozen Ghost     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joshua:
...where teh data you've provided is all teh data I have.

Look your joy stick in the eye and ask him what kind of data he has on it. From the scar on mine I'm picking up "Wasn't good for us Cap'n" from the old boy.

I'd have a problem performing my function as a satisfying lover. I mean I've got to revert to meditation techniques to make sure we're both happy as it is... and sometimes, sometimes that doesn't even work.

Realizing how important this is to you I'm sure you've done your research. The biggest help to me in this area was a book on extended orgasm that I read which I no longer have and can't recall the title. It wasn't about meditation as much as training. I see it around in bookstores or on lists occasionally and if I see it again I'll make note of it.

Take 3600 mg of Neurontin, 50 mg of Zoloft, 100 mg of Wellbutrin, chase that with twisted cig and plenty of water. Wait at least 30 to 45 minutes. You won't be able to bust a nut to save your freaking life. I don't recommend this method to anyone really, it sucks, and may be habit forming.

The Frozen Ghost

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joshua
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posted 03-31-2004 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joshua   Click Here to Email joshua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ha!

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BoredCynic™ v2.0
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posted 03-31-2004 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BoredCynic™ v2.0     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I don't recommend this method to anyone really, it sucks, and may be habit forming. "

Hell, at this point, i'll try anything...

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Frozen Ghost
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posted 04-02-2004 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frozen Ghost   Click Here to Email Frozen Ghost     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BoredCynic™ v2.0:
"I don't recommend this method to anyone really, it sucks, and may be habit forming. "

Hell, at this point, i'll try anything...


Well trot right down to your doc and have him prescribe some anti-ds for you.

Prozac is infamous for this side-effect called Ejaculatory incompetence, Delayed ejaculation, or my favorite Retarded Ejaculation. I've found that other anti-ds possess the potential for this 'feature' if you use them in the wrong (or right) combination. Basically any prescription drug that is tailored to monkey with my 'feel good' chemistry sets my climax threshold so high I can only breach it with ample amounts of Bella Donna or intense um, uh, … stimulation. Sometimes a balance will occur and I’m Superman with a bullet. Most of the time I wind up doing the sexual equivalent of aerobics which leaves me feeling a little like something between Sting and Sisyphus.

I hope no one thinks I'm being too open about this sort of thing. If you do then avert your eyes from this post. Oh, it's too late for that isn't it? Dang.

The Frozen Ghost

"Mind if I take a break and shave again?"

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BoredCynic™ v2.0
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posted 04-02-2004 08:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BoredCynic™ v2.0     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Prozac scares me, man. I've seen the long term results.

But, just....maybe.......

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Frozen Ghost
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posted 04-02-2004 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frozen Ghost   Click Here to Email Frozen Ghost     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BoredCynic™ v2.0:
Prozac scares me, man. I've seen the long term results.

But, just....maybe.......



Well, like I said I don't really recommend it. I'd try researching some training techniques before I went down the chemical trail.

The Frozen Ghost

A:"Wow! That was great! Was it good for you?"
B:"But you haven't taken your pants off yet!"

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